Wednesday, February 14, 2007

For the Record, Mark Shea

Mark Shea wrote an article, Puny Humans, Geocentrism, and ET , in which he referred to geocentrists as [reading Scripture in a ] "flat footed" [way] and being "fundamentalist". I left some comments in the "discussion" section" of Catholic Exchange (who hosts the articles, and of which Mark Shea is a big part). Mark Shea, or some unidentified moderator will not allow my discussion points to remain. I guess Mark does not like too much criticism.

For the record, I would like to post my comments.

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Mark:

You take the readers of Catholic Exchange as pretty gullible. You know that Gary Hoge gave up his geo-stationary satellite argument, even shutting down his web site (possibly for other reasons, too), yet you repeat it. You have no proof that geocentrism is wrong, you just believe this based on your stubborn disposition. I really wonder from what perspective you are operating- certainly not truth. Go ahead repeat all the lies you want, you are a big man. I hope someday you will have the courtesy and conscience to actually study the issue before you flap your gums, but I doubt it at this point. I have been following your comments on this for some time including repeated exchanges with Robert Sungenis (where you as much as admit that you have no knowledge in this area). You truly do not represent open mindedness. You really should be ashamed of yourself, and certainly should not have written this article without at least mentioning the history of your engagement with Sungenis, and the fact that you really have no knowledge on the topic.

You need to read Galileo Was Wrong by Sungenis and Bennett. If you have serious issues with specific points, then air them, but from what I have seen you do not care about facts, just your gut feeling.
Mark Wyatt
http://www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/
JMJ+
Submitted by markjwyatt on Thu, 02/08/2007 - 4:13pm.

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"That Mr. Hoge has taken down his site does not equate to saying his argument was bad. On the contrary, it was quite elegant. "

He (or more precisely his chosen representative) conceded the argument. I never said his equations did not work, nor that they were not "elegant". Read the debate.

"to say "The enthusiasm for geocentrism among a few reactionaries is not particularly credible" is not a "lie"."

No, it is not. All Catholics should be proud to be called "reactionaries". Our ideas came from our Lord who left earth 2000+ years ago.

But this is a lie:

"The falsity of ...[geocentrism]...has, of course, been shown many times"

The key element you are missing and that does not exist is the "showing", i.e., the evidence. Bellarmine's demonstration has yet to be made.

Mark Wyatt
http://www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/
JMJ+
Submitted by markjwyatt on Thu, 02/08/2007 - 10:31pm.
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Catholic Exchange:

You have allowed Mark Shea, a person who has basically admitted he knows nothing about geocentrism to write an article condeming it as a "flat footed" "fundamentalist" myth. (I guess Paul V, Urban VIII, and Alexander VII all needed to see a podiatrist).

Why not invite Robert Sungenis, who has written a doctoral thesis and a book on the topic to write an article to be displayed prominently on your site? If you are interested in truth, not saving appearances "to the world", this would make a lot of sense.

Mark Wyatt
http://www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/
JMJ+
Submitted by markjwyatt on Fri, 02/09/2007 - 9:08am.

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Sciencemom:
I said nothing about Mr. Shea's degree. My concern is that Mr. Shea himself has admitted he knows nothing on the topic, yet he proclaims it nonsense. As to degrees, keep in mind that Robert's co-author, Dr. Bennett, has a Ph.D. in physics with thesis on general relativity.

On top of Galileo Was Wrong, the standard for the geocentrism issue, you can also visit my 4 part blog series, Geocentricity 101:

Geocentricity 101, Part I: Basic Principles
Geocentricity 101, Part II: Basic Physics
Geocentricity 101, Part III: Scriptural and Church Position
Geocentricity 101, Supplement: Discussion of Scripture and Church Position

I have visited your site (and left some comments), but have not been by for a while. I will check out our arguments.

I hope you take the time to read Galileo Was Wrong. It goes far beyond a relativistic argument, and shows that most of the observational and experiemtnal evidence actually points to a non-moving central earth. It also shows historically how science has ignored and even obscured this evidence in order to reconcile the evidence to its presuppositions (the earth moves and is in the center).

Mark Wyatt
http://www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com/
JMJ+


BTW Mark Shea:

Note the difference in approach betwen you and sciencemom. She did not just blow geocentrism off as "flat footed" "funadmetalism", but actually studied the issue and put forth an intelligent response.

You have much to learn from her.
Submitted by markjwyatt on Fri, 02/09/2007 - 4:56pm.

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As a final note, in the next article down, I answer sciencemom's concerns in her Part 3 (which relates to my Geocentricity 101, Parts I and II).

11 Comments:

Blogger Mark said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, March 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Wednesday, March 07, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Coward!

_BenYachov

Friday, March 09, 2007  
Blogger Mark Wyatt said...

I am very open about leaving posts on topic, even critical ones.

Mark

Friday, March 09, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And yet you deleted my comments & those of Mr. Shea?

You have an odd definition of being "very open".

-BenYachov

Monday, March 12, 2007  
Blogger Mark Wyatt said...

I deleted it because it was not on the topic of the article, or actually anything on my blog.

Mark

Monday, March 12, 2007  
Anonymous Mark Shea said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Saturday, March 17, 2007  
Blogger BenYachov(Jim Scott 4th) said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Monday, March 19, 2007  
Blogger Patrick said...

SIXTY - SEVEN SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES

Sixty-Seven Scriptural References

Which Tell Us That It Is The Sun

And Not The Earth That Moves

Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."

15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."

19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."

28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."

32:31..... "...the sun rose...."

Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."

22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."

22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."

Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."

Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."

16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."

23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."

24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."

24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."

Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."

8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."

10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."

10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."

10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."

12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."

8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."

9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."

14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."

19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."

II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."

3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."

23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."

I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."

I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."

II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."

Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."

Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."

Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."

19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."

19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."

50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."

104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."

104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."

113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down

and hasteth to the place where he arose...."

Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."

38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."

38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."

41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."

59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."

Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."

Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."

Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."

Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."

Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."

Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."

Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."

Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."

13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."

Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."

4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."

16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."

Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."

Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."

James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."

That is a Total of 67 Verses from the Bible Which Say

that It Is the Sun that Moves and Not the Earth!

*******************

# of Verses from the Bible Which Say

that It Is the Earth that Moves and Not the Sun:

0

***********************

Will You...your Preacher...your Church Boldly

Stand With The Bible on this Creationist Teaching??

In the Biblical Creation there was, after all,

no sun for the earth to go around

until the fourth day!

(Genesis 1:14-19)

*******

Those who would like still further proof that there is no getting around

the fact that the Bible teaches that it is the sun--not the earth--

that moves, will want to read this title also:

"Grammatically and Semantically

the Holy Bible is Wholly Geocentric"

HERE

Also, go to "What If?" for the top 11 references in 7 Bible Books

which teach that the Earth is an immovable, stationary body,

around which the sun travels daily...and for some

other subject-related "What Ifs?"....

HERE

Wednesday, March 28, 2007  
Blogger : : c a k e t a k e r : : said...

Whoa, dude, chill, okay?

You have no proof that geocentrism is wrong,

If Earth really was the center of the universe, then the probes that were sent to the other planets and on outer system missions would have screwed up every time. Our planets would have unreasonable pathways through our skies. In fact, if Earth was at the center of the universe, physics itself would be useless; it's discoveries invalid. Gravity wouldn't exist - it would be replaced by some other weird force (that, apparently, changes whenever it feels like it). It's just not reasonable.

you just believe this based on your stubborn disposition. I really wonder from what perspective you are operating - certainly not truth.

Okay, I'm not this Mark dude who wrote this article, so for all I know you could be right and he could be just lying for kicks. "Look at these stupid people! Heeheehee."

However, if you think that this dude is a stubborn ass, you should really look at yourself. And I mean that in the nicest possible way, really. Ask yourself: could it be possible that Earth is actually the center of the universe? Would God really be mean enough to put us on some average planet around an average star? Maybe, just maybe, science is right? Maybe this Mark Rhea is not trying to offend, but just giving his opinion (like you are)?

The only way that geocentricity can be true (and I'm trying to understand here) is if you take Einstein's Theory of Relativity on board. This would mean that, as long as one is standing on the Earth, the Earth is still and, in essence, everything else is whizzing around us (albeit it strange pathways). However, once you stand on another planet/object in space (e.g. our moon), then that then becomes your frame of reference, and to you (who is currently hypothetically on the moon), the moon is still, and everything else is moving around you.

Oh, and here's something I don't understand, and was wonder if you (the mighty and never-wrong geocentrist) could explain:

It also shows historically how science has ignored and even obscured this evidence in order to reconcile the evidence to its presuppositions (the earth moves and is in the center).

Uhh... okaaay. Now *that* is weird. The whole point of science is to seek and find truth through logical reasoning and experimental data. Sometimes two scientists can come to opposing conclusions, but usually they argue and debate it out themselves but conducting more experiments, etc. Sometimes the scientist realises his/her mistake. Why would they forge evidence? It's simply unreasonable in the name of science. And scientists are reasonable.

I really hope that the deleted comments above were just of people saying "YOU SUCK", or something along the lines of that, not not of actual arguments. Then you'd be inclined to delete those types of comments (I would too). I think I've stuck to your topic here, and I really hope you don't delete this comment, as it would then confirm that you really are hypocritical. And you're not, right?

Sunday, April 22, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

caketaker:

I will not delete your comments. They are on topic. I will try and reply in the future.

Mark

Thursday, May 10, 2007  

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